It is that simple. Wow! Robert. Feels that way. You responded with so much precision and clarity - and I got that when I read it. So where the questions. Bravo! There is no more words needed. Thank you Robert. ❤️
Hello Robert, after reading this I was thinking if this project of self development - improvement that many of us are engaged in follows after an earlier one, the project of improving others and the world, has spectacularly failed ?
I find these “back & forth”s very helpful and enjoyable. And also interestingly, while reading them there is clearly an increase in tension. I can only assume that is because something being said is in conflict with what I am attracted to…perhaps ‘disagreement’?
Your quote of Alan Watts seems to be something I struggle with significantly off and on. Trying to grok: “Trying won’t get it done, but if you don’t try, there is no difference between you and a rock.” You can’t get there by traveling, but if you never leave home you will never arrive at the beginning.
Thank you, Robert. Apparently, I need constant reminding that at the heart of so many things that I can’t wrap my head around centers on the belief in a separate self/decider. There is a discreet body mind system, and I (it?) has built into it “there is a me”. Of course it does, it is likely what animates.
Yes, Dean. The saying sounds paradoxical only from the perspective of an imagined "myself" that stands apart and chooses, decides, and acts. Heard from there, "trying won't get it done, but if you don't try, there's no difference between you and a rock" looks like a contradiction you have to solve.
But it isn't a puzzle to solve. It's a warning against falling into nihilistic passivity on the one hand--the shrug that says nothing matters, so do nothing--and essentialism--the belief that there's a final state to reach and a right method to reach it--on the other. The saying closes both exits. Not the rock, not the seeker. Just this, happening, with trying and the not-trying arising as they do.
A question just appeared and I feel compelled to follow up even though I have already replied once. I’ll call this a “two for” I guess.
What is “aware” that there is no doer/decider? Or is this part of what you refer to as “the hall of mirrors”? Or, and here is what appeared and compelled me to reply again, is this question of what is awareness being aware just another “thought” that occurs within the body mind system? It is not a thing, only a thought…which is transitory? Or…am I just back at square one? Thanks Robert.
You're not back at square one, Dean. You've answered it in the asking. The awareness of no-doer is not a thing standing apart that registers the fact. It's a thought, or a noticing, arising in the body-mind like any other, transitory, gone in a moment, replaced by another. That thought is not a witness above the process. It's just another appearance within it.
That's the hall of mirrors, exactly. If you ask what is aware that there's no doer, you've assumed there must be a knower of the no-doer. And if you then ask what's aware of that knower, you get another, and another. No floor. If you look for the one who sees there's no seer, all you ever find is more seeing. You won't find anything behind it. The question "what is awareness being aware?" is itself one more arising in the system, as you said. Not a thing. A thought, entirely transitory.
So the answer to "what is aware there's no doer" is: nothing is. Awareness happens. The noticing of no-doer happens. Neither requires a someone to whom it happens, standing outside, taking it in. The felt someone who seems to know there's no doer is just another arising, mistaken for a knower. It never was a doer, and it isn't one now.
Well said. What agitates me is the infinite regress that is implied. That scares the whatever out of me. I want to be reassured that I'm going to land somewhere, some time.
I hear ya! Something my body mind system is trying to get used too…uncertainty.
I don’t think Robert would be shocked to hear me say that I venture into metaphysics frequently - what really IS going on? Just can’t help it. And yes, something knows it can’t be known.
Nice one Robert. Go well. 🫶🈚️
It is that simple. Wow! Robert. Feels that way. You responded with so much precision and clarity - and I got that when I read it. So where the questions. Bravo! There is no more words needed. Thank you Robert. ❤️
Hello Robert, after reading this I was thinking if this project of self development - improvement that many of us are engaged in follows after an earlier one, the project of improving others and the world, has spectacularly failed ?
Another generous reply. Your offering, with Q&A is so important Robert. Thank you.
I find these “back & forth”s very helpful and enjoyable. And also interestingly, while reading them there is clearly an increase in tension. I can only assume that is because something being said is in conflict with what I am attracted to…perhaps ‘disagreement’?
Your quote of Alan Watts seems to be something I struggle with significantly off and on. Trying to grok: “Trying won’t get it done, but if you don’t try, there is no difference between you and a rock.” You can’t get there by traveling, but if you never leave home you will never arrive at the beginning.
Thank you, Robert. Apparently, I need constant reminding that at the heart of so many things that I can’t wrap my head around centers on the belief in a separate self/decider. There is a discreet body mind system, and I (it?) has built into it “there is a me”. Of course it does, it is likely what animates.
Yes, Dean. The saying sounds paradoxical only from the perspective of an imagined "myself" that stands apart and chooses, decides, and acts. Heard from there, "trying won't get it done, but if you don't try, there's no difference between you and a rock" looks like a contradiction you have to solve.
But it isn't a puzzle to solve. It's a warning against falling into nihilistic passivity on the one hand--the shrug that says nothing matters, so do nothing--and essentialism--the belief that there's a final state to reach and a right method to reach it--on the other. The saying closes both exits. Not the rock, not the seeker. Just this, happening, with trying and the not-trying arising as they do.
A question just appeared and I feel compelled to follow up even though I have already replied once. I’ll call this a “two for” I guess.
What is “aware” that there is no doer/decider? Or is this part of what you refer to as “the hall of mirrors”? Or, and here is what appeared and compelled me to reply again, is this question of what is awareness being aware just another “thought” that occurs within the body mind system? It is not a thing, only a thought…which is transitory? Or…am I just back at square one? Thanks Robert.
You're not back at square one, Dean. You've answered it in the asking. The awareness of no-doer is not a thing standing apart that registers the fact. It's a thought, or a noticing, arising in the body-mind like any other, transitory, gone in a moment, replaced by another. That thought is not a witness above the process. It's just another appearance within it.
That's the hall of mirrors, exactly. If you ask what is aware that there's no doer, you've assumed there must be a knower of the no-doer. And if you then ask what's aware of that knower, you get another, and another. No floor. If you look for the one who sees there's no seer, all you ever find is more seeing. You won't find anything behind it. The question "what is awareness being aware?" is itself one more arising in the system, as you said. Not a thing. A thought, entirely transitory.
So the answer to "what is aware there's no doer" is: nothing is. Awareness happens. The noticing of no-doer happens. Neither requires a someone to whom it happens, standing outside, taking it in. The felt someone who seems to know there's no doer is just another arising, mistaken for a knower. It never was a doer, and it isn't one now.
The following resonates, consternates, and agitates: “The felt someone who seems to know there's no doer is just another arising.” 🤷♂️
As always, thank you for your pointing Robert!
Well said. What agitates me is the infinite regress that is implied. That scares the whatever out of me. I want to be reassured that I'm going to land somewhere, some time.
I hear ya! Something my body mind system is trying to get used too…uncertainty.
I don’t think Robert would be shocked to hear me say that I venture into metaphysics frequently - what really IS going on? Just can’t help it. And yes, something knows it can’t be known.