Hello Robert, Do you think that to live with attention to the moment and without any expectation has to do with a kind of predisposition that comes with some particular human organisms and not with others?
I agree with everything you say, Robert, and love how you communicate. Nothing is ultimately known. We do have a knowledge of what we need to function in society. We have the conditional knowledge put into us by our culture. But beliefs and ideas based on abstractions, such as religious dogmas, are not lies (in my view) but stories or fables we are told and tell ourselves about whatever this is or seems to be. In a sense there is nothing we know at all. But we like to tell stories, make things up, talk incessantly about it all, and participate in our rituals and dances. Just stories all the way to the grave. I guess the stories become lies when they are the framework of an entire cultural identity that conflicts with other cultural identities. Then we can fight like baboons over our ideas, but with bombs instead of sticks.
Thank you, Robert. Just what I needed this morning. Also, thanks to you and Joan T. for mentioning Darryl Bailey. I've since been reading his stuff. Love it too!...
Hi, Stephen. Thanks so much for your kind words. Joan's writing is lovely—sensitive, honest, and straightforward. Her recent piece, "The Heart Goes Rogue," struck me as one of her best.
Robert, I'm not really 'objecting', and I appreciate the main topic you address. I'm sorry if I appear to strawman it, which was not intentional. I was drawing attention to what I see as a fact of life, also raised by others, that while the principle of being in the moment is simple, putting it into practice isn't. This, I imagine, some would see as an opportunity to develop their philosophy, to help those of us who don't live as you say you live, without wanting or needing anything to be different. You don't seem to want to do that, and perhaps don't recognise the problem.
I'm disappointed. This is the second time that my genuine attempt to discuss your philosophy has resulted in a dismissive response. Last time, if I didn't agree with something, you said, "you and I have nothing to discuss". This time I'm advised to read your books and get back to you. This is not the response I expect from someone who has critiqued their views carefully, as you claim to have done, and developed a wise and reasonably comprehensive philosophy.
I have appreciated greatly your rejection of the supernatural garbage gurus assert, and I was attracted to your work by the hope of rescuing a gem of truth from the mass of spiritual nonsense I imbibed in past decades. I feel now that this isn't so. For sure, it's a wonderful thing to "be here now" when the universe conspires to cause that state of mind, but there is a lot more to life, and emphasizing one aspect of life is not, to my mind, living fully.
Since I have said my piece, my view isn't in accord with yours, and discussion appears off limits, I'll leave you in peace.
Some people say they see gems in what I share here, John. If you don't, I don't know how to be more explicit. That is why I suggested reading my books, which provide more comprehensive treatments of these ideas.
I have no "how" to offer. No techniques. No path.
The essence is amor fati—love your fate—which includes the fact that sometimes things are tough to take and cannot be fixed or changed by good intentions or treatment protocols. It may be that you are focused on therapy, and I am not, so perhaps you are looking for something from me that I do not have to give.
How, though, do we overcome the habits of our indoctrination, Robert? I feel you missed something in the question. You've worked as a therapist, and so have I, and you must surely know that you can explain to someone, and they can even fully recognise, that their grasping at future goals is making them unhappy (or a whole lot of other habits, including re-running the past), but that very often doesn't take the problem away, because we have deep-seated automatic responses that are sometimes difficult to overcome.
So yes, damn straight there are differences in people's ability to live in the moment and feel free of future desires and worries or past traumas - some of us are lucky enough to have very little holding us in unhelpful behavioural patterns, while others have had deep and harsh "indoctrination." Some have been dealt a hand in life that programs them deeply to be fearful or grasping. Those conditions take a lot of work, perhaps including analysis of the conditions, perhaps other therapies, to become free of, and some (I believe) will never get free of them, although they might improve.
It is wise and necessary to consider the future, too, and we all have expectations (as the questioner asked about living in the moment without expectations). You've already made a distinction between reasonable wants and needs, like food, and exorbitant ones, like Lamborghinis. So reason dicates we have some need of working out what of our desires might be fine and which might be causing us harm. And just thinking about that is dealing with future expectations and learning from past experiences. Living in the moment, I'm beginning to think, is a rather unwise (and rather privileged) preoccupation.
John, It seems that you do not have a feeling for what I mean by living moment-by-moment.
You are objecting to--and calling "rather privileged"--a straw man you have whipped up by misunderstanding what I am saying and converting it into your terms. I am not discussing psychotherapy or improvement, but being as one is moment-by-moment without resistence. If you are interested in this, read my books and then get back to me.
The privilege idea does not fit here at all. People of all circumstances are awake in the way I use that term, while many "privileged" ones have no idea of what it means to truly live.
Robert, once you've given up on trying to attain a spiritual goal, you are free -- free to be as you are. But what about people who've never really had a spiritual goal to begin with?
Well, David, my reply here is not focused on spiritual goals in particular but on the indoctrination "that makes [people] focus on the future, including fantasies of what they might attain materially or spiritually."
In terms of psychological dynamics, I see little difference between wanting to be a billionaire and wanting to be a "realized being." Both imply that one's present condition is less than satisfactory, but all we ever have is our present condition. Anything else is either a memory or a fantasy of the future, both of which obscure this moment.
Thanks, Robert. But it seems to me that there is a difference between wanting to be a billionaire and the desire of an immigrant friend of mine who wants to make enough money so that he and his young family can have a comfortable life. How would the indoctrination you refer to relate to that situation?
That is an excellent question involving agency, desire, culture, and sanity.
To me, actions that simply obey the dictates of indoctrination seem different from those that express one's rock-bottom primate human needs. One truly needs air, water, food, clothing, shelter, and many other less urgent items; if those are not in sufficient supply, wanting them seems natural. Is wanting a Lamborghini the same as wanting a safe place to sleep? You tell me.
Thanks Robert. There’s so much grace here to experience. Moment by moment. The shackles to the past have truly broken and been kicked off, only a few years ago and I (me) do have a sense of freedom now to enjoy the simple things, as said, the grace. It’s the evil that has become more apparent to me that I resist seeing. The suffering that many of the 3 letter agencies, who inflict their psychopathy onto others, including toxic systems that treat animals like objects without sentience, also trees, etc. that I struggle with the most. Do you have an opinion on how to be with this?
Christine, living can be difficult regarding one's personal pain and suffering as well as the horrors one observes in the natural world at large, including other humans and all other sentient beings. I have no opinion to offer about how to be okay with that. I have no "how."
I don't see that I have any choice in the matter. What it is. All one can do is chew up experience moment by moment and swallow it, like it or not, and sometimes one barely has enough saliva to get it down.
Thanks for replying Robert. I don’t want to be apathetic about the state of the world. So are you saying that I can only contribute to a better world with what is in my wheelhouse? I guess that’s the thing…to accept that I, as an individual, can take action only on things and situations that are supported by my natural or given talents. Otherwise I would be shouting (or pissing) into the wind.
Seems that “small things, with great love” is all I’ve really got.
That's not what I was saying, but I agree with it. No one can save the world. There are billions of us humans, each with an agenda of some kind. There's not much to be done about that.
I agree with everything you say, Robert, and love how you communicate. Nothing is ultimately known. We do have a knowledge of what we need to function in society. We have the conditional knowledge put into us by our culture. But beliefs and ideas based on abstractions, such as religious dogmas, are not lies (in my view) but stories or fables we are told and tell ourselves about whatever this is or seems to be. In a sense there is nothing we know at all. But we like to tell stories, make things up, talk incessantly about it all, and participate in our rituals and dances. Just stories all the way to the grave. I guess the stories become lies when they are the framework of an entire cultural identity that conflicts with other cultural identities. Then we can fight like baboons over our ideas, but with bombs instead of sticks.
Wow. So well put.
Thank you, Robert. Just what I needed this morning. Also, thanks to you and Joan T. for mentioning Darryl Bailey. I've since been reading his stuff. Love it too!...
Great, Robert!
Again, thank you very much for your beautiful writings.
Un abrazo, amigo.
Knowing you don’t know anything is totally liberating. Thanks Robert for constantly reminding me.
Beautiful. No bs and real as usual !
Spot on dude - without doubt you and Joan are the most skilful wordsmiths discussing this stuff that I have ever bumped into. I'm grateful.
Hi, Stephen. Thanks so much for your kind words. Joan's writing is lovely—sensitive, honest, and straightforward. Her recent piece, "The Heart Goes Rogue," struck me as one of her best.
Robert, I'm not really 'objecting', and I appreciate the main topic you address. I'm sorry if I appear to strawman it, which was not intentional. I was drawing attention to what I see as a fact of life, also raised by others, that while the principle of being in the moment is simple, putting it into practice isn't. This, I imagine, some would see as an opportunity to develop their philosophy, to help those of us who don't live as you say you live, without wanting or needing anything to be different. You don't seem to want to do that, and perhaps don't recognise the problem.
I'm disappointed. This is the second time that my genuine attempt to discuss your philosophy has resulted in a dismissive response. Last time, if I didn't agree with something, you said, "you and I have nothing to discuss". This time I'm advised to read your books and get back to you. This is not the response I expect from someone who has critiqued their views carefully, as you claim to have done, and developed a wise and reasonably comprehensive philosophy.
I have appreciated greatly your rejection of the supernatural garbage gurus assert, and I was attracted to your work by the hope of rescuing a gem of truth from the mass of spiritual nonsense I imbibed in past decades. I feel now that this isn't so. For sure, it's a wonderful thing to "be here now" when the universe conspires to cause that state of mind, but there is a lot more to life, and emphasizing one aspect of life is not, to my mind, living fully.
Since I have said my piece, my view isn't in accord with yours, and discussion appears off limits, I'll leave you in peace.
Some people say they see gems in what I share here, John. If you don't, I don't know how to be more explicit. That is why I suggested reading my books, which provide more comprehensive treatments of these ideas.
I have no "how" to offer. No techniques. No path.
The essence is amor fati—love your fate—which includes the fact that sometimes things are tough to take and cannot be fixed or changed by good intentions or treatment protocols. It may be that you are focused on therapy, and I am not, so perhaps you are looking for something from me that I do not have to give.
Memento mori.
I wish you well.
How, though, do we overcome the habits of our indoctrination, Robert? I feel you missed something in the question. You've worked as a therapist, and so have I, and you must surely know that you can explain to someone, and they can even fully recognise, that their grasping at future goals is making them unhappy (or a whole lot of other habits, including re-running the past), but that very often doesn't take the problem away, because we have deep-seated automatic responses that are sometimes difficult to overcome.
So yes, damn straight there are differences in people's ability to live in the moment and feel free of future desires and worries or past traumas - some of us are lucky enough to have very little holding us in unhelpful behavioural patterns, while others have had deep and harsh "indoctrination." Some have been dealt a hand in life that programs them deeply to be fearful or grasping. Those conditions take a lot of work, perhaps including analysis of the conditions, perhaps other therapies, to become free of, and some (I believe) will never get free of them, although they might improve.
It is wise and necessary to consider the future, too, and we all have expectations (as the questioner asked about living in the moment without expectations). You've already made a distinction between reasonable wants and needs, like food, and exorbitant ones, like Lamborghinis. So reason dicates we have some need of working out what of our desires might be fine and which might be causing us harm. And just thinking about that is dealing with future expectations and learning from past experiences. Living in the moment, I'm beginning to think, is a rather unwise (and rather privileged) preoccupation.
John, It seems that you do not have a feeling for what I mean by living moment-by-moment.
You are objecting to--and calling "rather privileged"--a straw man you have whipped up by misunderstanding what I am saying and converting it into your terms. I am not discussing psychotherapy or improvement, but being as one is moment-by-moment without resistence. If you are interested in this, read my books and then get back to me.
The privilege idea does not fit here at all. People of all circumstances are awake in the way I use that term, while many "privileged" ones have no idea of what it means to truly live.
Robert, once you've given up on trying to attain a spiritual goal, you are free -- free to be as you are. But what about people who've never really had a spiritual goal to begin with?
Well, David, my reply here is not focused on spiritual goals in particular but on the indoctrination "that makes [people] focus on the future, including fantasies of what they might attain materially or spiritually."
In terms of psychological dynamics, I see little difference between wanting to be a billionaire and wanting to be a "realized being." Both imply that one's present condition is less than satisfactory, but all we ever have is our present condition. Anything else is either a memory or a fantasy of the future, both of which obscure this moment.
Thanks, Robert. But it seems to me that there is a difference between wanting to be a billionaire and the desire of an immigrant friend of mine who wants to make enough money so that he and his young family can have a comfortable life. How would the indoctrination you refer to relate to that situation?
That is an excellent question involving agency, desire, culture, and sanity.
To me, actions that simply obey the dictates of indoctrination seem different from those that express one's rock-bottom primate human needs. One truly needs air, water, food, clothing, shelter, and many other less urgent items; if those are not in sufficient supply, wanting them seems natural. Is wanting a Lamborghini the same as wanting a safe place to sleep? You tell me.
Thanks Robert. There’s so much grace here to experience. Moment by moment. The shackles to the past have truly broken and been kicked off, only a few years ago and I (me) do have a sense of freedom now to enjoy the simple things, as said, the grace. It’s the evil that has become more apparent to me that I resist seeing. The suffering that many of the 3 letter agencies, who inflict their psychopathy onto others, including toxic systems that treat animals like objects without sentience, also trees, etc. that I struggle with the most. Do you have an opinion on how to be with this?
Christine, living can be difficult regarding one's personal pain and suffering as well as the horrors one observes in the natural world at large, including other humans and all other sentient beings. I have no opinion to offer about how to be okay with that. I have no "how."
I don't see that I have any choice in the matter. What it is. All one can do is chew up experience moment by moment and swallow it, like it or not, and sometimes one barely has enough saliva to get it down.
The adept gives himself up
to whatever the moment brings.
He knows that he is going to die,
and he has nothing left to hold on to:
no illusions in his mind,
no resistance in his body.
He doesn’t think about his actions;
they flow from the core of his being.
He holds nothing back from life;
therefore he is ready for death,
as a man is ready for sleep
after a good day’s work.
---Tao Te Ching – Verse 50
Thanks for replying Robert. I don’t want to be apathetic about the state of the world. So are you saying that I can only contribute to a better world with what is in my wheelhouse? I guess that’s the thing…to accept that I, as an individual, can take action only on things and situations that are supported by my natural or given talents. Otherwise I would be shouting (or pissing) into the wind.
Seems that “small things, with great love” is all I’ve really got.
Thank you Robert. I find the Q & A format here and in your book The Ten Thousand Things really helpful. To honour other voices is lovely. Go well
That's not what I was saying, but I agree with it. No one can save the world. There are billions of us humans, each with an agenda of some kind. There's not much to be done about that.
Be well.