Beautiful!! I love it what you share in this video.
I went on an inner journey that suddenly started 6.5 years ago.... and many things passed by... Also these 'spiritual' things that i thought i had to be.
I saw in myself the loud belief: "I am wrong", and i realized i was trying to look for something to become better. And at one point i noticed i had to be honest. But I also saw how easy it was to not be honest. Out of fear. It seems like i had to see so many parts of myself that i didn't like to see: my dishonesty, certain reactions, manipulation, etc. I still notice a fear in me sometimes in certain situations... and the only thing I can do is to see it and learn from it.
I totally see that it is about being honest, real and authentic. And at the same time i noticed the fear, shame and guilt, 'cause I, like many of us, have learned and believed that being our self is not welcome. I guess we try to find our self in all of these 'spiritual' places, but the only place you can find yourself is in sitting in honesty with yourself. For me the way to my heart was seeing and feeling the things I did not like to see and feel. And the only place i can find beauty and love is in this moment.
As an Australian friend of mine used to say. Got your finger on the trigger with that Video (aka spot on).
It brought to mind the old Alka Seltzer commercial “Plop, Plop, Fizz, Fizz, Oh What a relief it is! lol! You to have a few years on you to remember those commercials.
What a relief it is that we can just be in our humanity as it is. Thank you for that sorely needed message Mr Saltzman. 🙏
As is often the case Chogyan Trungpa Rinpoche outs his finger on the heart of the matter. His example was authentic and was unobstructed in his expression:
CONFUSED EGOLESSNESS
“The whole idea [of egolessness] is that we must drop all reference points, all concepts of what is or what should be. Then it is possible to experience the uniqueness and vividness of phenomena directly. There is tremendous room to experience things, to allow experience to occur and pass away. Movement happens within vast space. Whatever happens, pleasure, pain, birth, death and so forth, are not interfered with but are experienced in their fullest flavour. Whether they are sweet or sour, they are experienced completely, without philosophical overlays or emotional attitudes to make things seem loveable or presentable…….
The idea of egolessness has often been used to obscure the reality of birth, suffering and death. The problem is that, once we have a notion of egolessness and a notion of pain, birth and death, then we can easily entertain or justify ourselves by saying that pain does not exist because there is no ego to experience it, that birth and death do not exist because there is no one to witness them. This is just cheap escapism. The philosophy of shunyata has often been distorted by the presentation of the idea that: “There is no one to suffer, so who cares? If you suffer, it must be your illusion.”
I gave this another listen and I think people look to various practices to get away from something that is bothering them. But the bothering is the suffering and suffering is nothing more than wanting things to be other than they are. If you see the source of the suffering/problem as your desire to have things to be different than what they are you may find contentment. It lays with you.
Hello Robert. Deep thanks from my heart for your natural, spontaneous views and playful engagement with all comers. All I've read and seen of you has tempered and helped sharpen 'my' 40+ years of investigation into what on Earth is going on here. Trungpa Rinpoche was one of my original teachers for many years and no doubt the deep ambivalence and provocation of some of his activities naturally have drawn huge criticism. As to any justification for his actions, is complex and in my opinion - rests on how much intense personal situations, bring real meaning for individuals attempting to find genuine sanity in the midst of the chaos. The reach and depth of his contributions to date it seems are so various, that quantifying them, let alone forming any significant overall judgement, ultimately gets drowned in an ocean of relative speculation and opinion. Which is not to say many criticisms aren't justified. What isn't said enough, is that his actions were also shaped by and complicit with the naivety his students. The 70's and 80's were another era for so many reasons. In the rearview mirror of 2025, 'seekers' may have more mature tools and assessments when relating with teachers of all kinds.
I'm not sure how you can so definitively assert that his contributions were malign...be that as it may. My personal experience of him and his teaching were always suffused with the warnings - 'there are no guarantees, it's up to you, skepticism is crucial at all times.' Personally, as a skeptic and bad joiner or member of clubs, this is something of a mantra to me. Ultimately, who else is one's life to do with, apart from my own experience and relationships? The other thing I learnt from him was that if the fruit of your studies didn't manifest profound natural kindness (bodhicitta) towards every being, it's deeply suspect and merits real scrutiny. Anyway, I came across this the other day (some of his more blunt teachings) and wondered what you'd make of it? Warm wishes to you and the wondrous donkeys! William
“Quite possibly there is no such thing as spiritual practice except stepping out of self-deception, stopping our struggle to get hold of spiritual states. Just give that up. Other than that there is no spirituality. It is a very desolate situation. It is like living among snowcapped peaks with clouds wrapped around them and the sun and moon starkly shining over them. Below, tall alpine trees are swayed by strong howling winds and beneath them is a thundering waterfall. From our point of view, we may appreciate this desolation if we are an occasional tourist who photographs it or a mountain climber trying to climb to the mountain top. But we do not really want to live in those desolate places. It’s no fun. It is terrifying, terrible. But it is possible to make friends with the desolation and appreciate its beauty.
Great sages like Milarepa relate to the desolation as their bride. They marry themselves to desolation, to the fundamental psychological aloneness. They do not need physical or psychological entertainment. Aloneness becomes their companion, their spiritual consort, part of their being. Where ever they go they are alone, whatever they do they are alone. Whether they relate socially with friends or meditate alone or perform ceremonies together or meditate together, aloneness is there all the time. That aloneness is freedom, fundamental freedom. The aloneness is described as the marriage of shunyata and wisdom in which your perception of aloneness suggests the needlessness of dualistic occupation. It is also described as the marriage of shunyata and compassion in which aloneness inspires compassionate action in living situations. Such a discovery reveals the possibility of cutting through the karmic chain reactions that recreate ego-oriented situations, because that aloneness or the space of desolation does not entertain you, does not feed you anymore.” – Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche From: "Tantra, Collected Works of Chogyam Trungpa" Vol 3,
"Quite possibly there is no such thing as spiritual practice except stepping out of self-deception, stopping our struggle to get hold of spiritual states. Just give that up. Other than that there is no spirituality."
Yes. I agree with this entirely. I think you can hear that in the video.
I say that Trunga was a malign influence because he gave into alcoholism and superstition. He created great harm by telling his disciple Tendzin, who was infected with HIV and had sex with his students, both male and female, that he could not transmit the disease to them as long as he practiced the dharma. That was nonsense. Many students became ill. Many died.
I know that some who admire Trungpa try to explain this away. I am not one of them. Superstition is superstition no matter who you are. Drug addiction does not jibe with liberation, no matter how anyone tries to spin it as crazy wisdom or whatever.
If you want to see things as they are, and if you understand the quote you offered, you must see that Trungpa talked a good game but when all is said and done, was self-deceived. He lied to himself and thus to all who followed him.
Beautiful!! I love it what you share in this video.
I went on an inner journey that suddenly started 6.5 years ago.... and many things passed by... Also these 'spiritual' things that i thought i had to be.
I saw in myself the loud belief: "I am wrong", and i realized i was trying to look for something to become better. And at one point i noticed i had to be honest. But I also saw how easy it was to not be honest. Out of fear. It seems like i had to see so many parts of myself that i didn't like to see: my dishonesty, certain reactions, manipulation, etc. I still notice a fear in me sometimes in certain situations... and the only thing I can do is to see it and learn from it.
I totally see that it is about being honest, real and authentic. And at the same time i noticed the fear, shame and guilt, 'cause I, like many of us, have learned and believed that being our self is not welcome. I guess we try to find our self in all of these 'spiritual' places, but the only place you can find yourself is in sitting in honesty with yourself. For me the way to my heart was seeing and feeling the things I did not like to see and feel. And the only place i can find beauty and love is in this moment.
As an Australian friend of mine used to say. Got your finger on the trigger with that Video (aka spot on).
It brought to mind the old Alka Seltzer commercial “Plop, Plop, Fizz, Fizz, Oh What a relief it is! lol! You to have a few years on you to remember those commercials.
What a relief it is that we can just be in our humanity as it is. Thank you for that sorely needed message Mr Saltzman. 🙏
You are most welcome, Ben. Be well.
Wow! Self-honesty. And if you can do self-honesty that’s it. Nothing else is needed.
As is often the case Chogyan Trungpa Rinpoche outs his finger on the heart of the matter. His example was authentic and was unobstructed in his expression:
CONFUSED EGOLESSNESS
“The whole idea [of egolessness] is that we must drop all reference points, all concepts of what is or what should be. Then it is possible to experience the uniqueness and vividness of phenomena directly. There is tremendous room to experience things, to allow experience to occur and pass away. Movement happens within vast space. Whatever happens, pleasure, pain, birth, death and so forth, are not interfered with but are experienced in their fullest flavour. Whether they are sweet or sour, they are experienced completely, without philosophical overlays or emotional attitudes to make things seem loveable or presentable…….
The idea of egolessness has often been used to obscure the reality of birth, suffering and death. The problem is that, once we have a notion of egolessness and a notion of pain, birth and death, then we can easily entertain or justify ourselves by saying that pain does not exist because there is no ego to experience it, that birth and death do not exist because there is no one to witness them. This is just cheap escapism. The philosophy of shunyata has often been distorted by the presentation of the idea that: “There is no one to suffer, so who cares? If you suffer, it must be your illusion.”
Chogyam Trungpa-Myth of Freedom
Yes. Thanks. Trungpa was brilliant on this topic for sure, albeit a malign presence ultimately, as I have written about.
I gave this another listen and I think people look to various practices to get away from something that is bothering them. But the bothering is the suffering and suffering is nothing more than wanting things to be other than they are. If you see the source of the suffering/problem as your desire to have things to be different than what they are you may find contentment. It lays with you.
Hello Robert. Deep thanks from my heart for your natural, spontaneous views and playful engagement with all comers. All I've read and seen of you has tempered and helped sharpen 'my' 40+ years of investigation into what on Earth is going on here. Trungpa Rinpoche was one of my original teachers for many years and no doubt the deep ambivalence and provocation of some of his activities naturally have drawn huge criticism. As to any justification for his actions, is complex and in my opinion - rests on how much intense personal situations, bring real meaning for individuals attempting to find genuine sanity in the midst of the chaos. The reach and depth of his contributions to date it seems are so various, that quantifying them, let alone forming any significant overall judgement, ultimately gets drowned in an ocean of relative speculation and opinion. Which is not to say many criticisms aren't justified. What isn't said enough, is that his actions were also shaped by and complicit with the naivety his students. The 70's and 80's were another era for so many reasons. In the rearview mirror of 2025, 'seekers' may have more mature tools and assessments when relating with teachers of all kinds.
I'm not sure how you can so definitively assert that his contributions were malign...be that as it may. My personal experience of him and his teaching were always suffused with the warnings - 'there are no guarantees, it's up to you, skepticism is crucial at all times.' Personally, as a skeptic and bad joiner or member of clubs, this is something of a mantra to me. Ultimately, who else is one's life to do with, apart from my own experience and relationships? The other thing I learnt from him was that if the fruit of your studies didn't manifest profound natural kindness (bodhicitta) towards every being, it's deeply suspect and merits real scrutiny. Anyway, I came across this the other day (some of his more blunt teachings) and wondered what you'd make of it? Warm wishes to you and the wondrous donkeys! William
“Quite possibly there is no such thing as spiritual practice except stepping out of self-deception, stopping our struggle to get hold of spiritual states. Just give that up. Other than that there is no spirituality. It is a very desolate situation. It is like living among snowcapped peaks with clouds wrapped around them and the sun and moon starkly shining over them. Below, tall alpine trees are swayed by strong howling winds and beneath them is a thundering waterfall. From our point of view, we may appreciate this desolation if we are an occasional tourist who photographs it or a mountain climber trying to climb to the mountain top. But we do not really want to live in those desolate places. It’s no fun. It is terrifying, terrible. But it is possible to make friends with the desolation and appreciate its beauty.
Great sages like Milarepa relate to the desolation as their bride. They marry themselves to desolation, to the fundamental psychological aloneness. They do not need physical or psychological entertainment. Aloneness becomes their companion, their spiritual consort, part of their being. Where ever they go they are alone, whatever they do they are alone. Whether they relate socially with friends or meditate alone or perform ceremonies together or meditate together, aloneness is there all the time. That aloneness is freedom, fundamental freedom. The aloneness is described as the marriage of shunyata and wisdom in which your perception of aloneness suggests the needlessness of dualistic occupation. It is also described as the marriage of shunyata and compassion in which aloneness inspires compassionate action in living situations. Such a discovery reveals the possibility of cutting through the karmic chain reactions that recreate ego-oriented situations, because that aloneness or the space of desolation does not entertain you, does not feed you anymore.” – Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche From: "Tantra, Collected Works of Chogyam Trungpa" Vol 3,
"Quite possibly there is no such thing as spiritual practice except stepping out of self-deception, stopping our struggle to get hold of spiritual states. Just give that up. Other than that there is no spirituality."
Yes. I agree with this entirely. I think you can hear that in the video.
I say that Trunga was a malign influence because he gave into alcoholism and superstition. He created great harm by telling his disciple Tendzin, who was infected with HIV and had sex with his students, both male and female, that he could not transmit the disease to them as long as he practiced the dharma. That was nonsense. Many students became ill. Many died.
I know that some who admire Trungpa try to explain this away. I am not one of them. Superstition is superstition no matter who you are. Drug addiction does not jibe with liberation, no matter how anyone tries to spin it as crazy wisdom or whatever.
If you want to see things as they are, and if you understand the quote you offered, you must see that Trungpa talked a good game but when all is said and done, was self-deceived. He lied to himself and thus to all who followed him.