Whew, this discussion right here probably embodies the whole history and source of religion and spirituality. I'm looking at your questioner's comment: "If a scientifically undemonstrable idea reduces anxiety, thus making this difficult life somewhat more tolerable or more enjoyable, is not this a sufficiently good reason to entertain that idea?"
I remember when I was 19—many years ago—and my girlfriend and I were discussing religion. She said, "People need something to believe in." I never forgot that statement. I'll admit I was somewhat disappointed because she was a very intelligent girl and I couldn't believe she would endorse believing in something only because you "need" to. I think I may have held out my hand and said, "I 'need' a hundred dollars. Well... where is it?" (I've matured since then haha)
But that's the thing: why was I not capable of going down that path when so many others were? Why was I wary of walking along a sidewalk that was likely to collapse on me when I needed it the most? I'd rather risk snakes in the jungle than a sidewalk that was only a mirage.
If you're not a narcissist who assumes he is right and everyone else is wrong, it really makes you wonder about the human mind in all its various formations and functions. It helps you to understand why there is so much chaos and violence in society; because in general it appears that the willingness to believe in an unprovable idealogical concept is going to win over, even as it leads to the need to defend those concepts with one's life (or worse, the lives of one's followers).
We're a fascinating bunch, we humans.
I would say to your questioner; follow that "more tolerable and enjoyable" result of entertaining comforting but imagined concepts and see if it actually leads to more happiness.
Thanks for sharing this back and forth. I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic grande and high schools, and alter boy, and oldest of four. Am now agnostic and appreciate the clarity you explained in the post.
Thanks for the comments on both ends. I’m not far behind you in age Robert and while I may think along the same lines as you, I have to say that I’m not as easy on people or myself when I “fall”. I frequently chide myself for reading things that I end up seeing as an extension of “seeking”/“desire”, although I clearly see that it’s a big part of what keeps humanity caught in the squirrel cage. Thanks again.
As always I enjoy your posts which are always provocative. The statement that I rely on is simply no belief is true. As J Krishnamurti one said “A belief vis merely an opinion”. Thanks Robert.
"I take my coffee black, but if sugar and cream make someone happy, fine by me." Whoa! Crystal Clear!
By the way, the image along with this post I find to be just a knock-out. All of the material junk and all the rectilinear lines, squarish patch shapes and hard materials, then offset by the delicate, tiny, and living cat just sets up such a wonderful surprise and contrast. For me it calls into question the relentless materialism of the modern world perhaps overwhelming or just in contrast to the delicate living world. Such a strong image both in design and metaphorically at least to my reading. Memorable!!!
This was great. I am also agnostic, but I often entertain what is most likely fantasy and/or magical thinking. I look at life from both sides now; I really don't know clouds at all. I truly appreciate the clarity of your words, Robert. I know I have told you this, but you remind me so much of UG; not personality-wise, but in the bottom line of your wisdom. After he died, UG appeared to me in a lucid dream and, without getting into details, first, I was very happy to see him and I said -- because it seemed obvious -- "So, there is no death." He smiled. Then he went to the window, morphed into a big white bird and flew away. After that dream, all fear of death fell away -- not that I was ever that afraid of dying. In any case, I believe he would agree 100% with what you said, and how you said it. I never cease to enjoy and benefit greatly from your words.
I never met UG, but I do think we see (saw) life and the world in much the same way. Yes, different personalities. I am a quiet listener. Judging from the videos I have seen, UG was an interrupter and non-stop talker, but I see his kindness under the somewhat impatient exterior.
I really appreciate and enjoy the clarity of your writing and ideas. Krishnamurti would approve I think(ha ha... not that you need JK's approval). I also enjoy wonder and awe and the sense that there is more here than meets the eye...maybe I'm just a romantic, but I often get the feeling of a benevolent reality that is also here but that's difficult to see... and sometimes I'm pretty sure I am seeing and experiencing that reality. "Heaven is spread upon the Earth but men do not see it" Jesus says in the Gospel of Thomas. Anyway, I could be wrong... we could all be wrong, and probably are to some extent. Obviously there's no way to know for sure and maybe at some point we will learn the true nature of reality and workings of the universe... that would be nice of course, but it looks doubtful that we(as individuals) will ever know. Oh well... I guess that's why staying with this, here, right now is as much as I can "know"... but I'm pretty foolish. It's a funny thing.
Yet another post where, for me, you nail it bro...
An agnostic stance on such matters is, for me currently, the only one that ticks all of the boxes - and I also understand why others have a different view.
RS - why do Claim to be Awake? Is it the same Awake that others claim like Rupert Spira, Tony Parsons, Eckhart Tolle. They also claim further that Nothing Exists & Nothing Happens. Parsons even says there is No purpose or Meaning in life.
With your philosophical outlook your Awakeness, compared to other “Awakers” doesn’t seem to fit. I would put you more in the Sam Harris agnostic camp.
I am not "claiming" to be awake. The condition I describe in my writing and speaking is a report, not a claim. I have defined what I mean by awake here and elsewhere, so when I say that I am awake, that is what I mean.
As for the three people you mentioned:
I consider that Spira is lost in a delusional, self-hypnotic trance, and I have said why.
As for Tolle, you can read about him in Depending On No-Thing, Chapter 69. I don't consider him to be awake in the way I use that word.
I don't know much about Parsons, but if he says there is no fixed meaning or purpose in life, he and I agree on that. If you find something meaningful, you do, but what is meaningful to you might be meaningless to the next person. As for purpose, what would you say it is?
Whew, this discussion right here probably embodies the whole history and source of religion and spirituality. I'm looking at your questioner's comment: "If a scientifically undemonstrable idea reduces anxiety, thus making this difficult life somewhat more tolerable or more enjoyable, is not this a sufficiently good reason to entertain that idea?"
I remember when I was 19—many years ago—and my girlfriend and I were discussing religion. She said, "People need something to believe in." I never forgot that statement. I'll admit I was somewhat disappointed because she was a very intelligent girl and I couldn't believe she would endorse believing in something only because you "need" to. I think I may have held out my hand and said, "I 'need' a hundred dollars. Well... where is it?" (I've matured since then haha)
But that's the thing: why was I not capable of going down that path when so many others were? Why was I wary of walking along a sidewalk that was likely to collapse on me when I needed it the most? I'd rather risk snakes in the jungle than a sidewalk that was only a mirage.
If you're not a narcissist who assumes he is right and everyone else is wrong, it really makes you wonder about the human mind in all its various formations and functions. It helps you to understand why there is so much chaos and violence in society; because in general it appears that the willingness to believe in an unprovable idealogical concept is going to win over, even as it leads to the need to defend those concepts with one's life (or worse, the lives of one's followers).
We're a fascinating bunch, we humans.
I would say to your questioner; follow that "more tolerable and enjoyable" result of entertaining comforting but imagined concepts and see if it actually leads to more happiness.
Thanks for your courage, Robert!
Thanks for sharing this back and forth. I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic grande and high schools, and alter boy, and oldest of four. Am now agnostic and appreciate the clarity you explained in the post.
Thanks for the comments on both ends. I’m not far behind you in age Robert and while I may think along the same lines as you, I have to say that I’m not as easy on people or myself when I “fall”. I frequently chide myself for reading things that I end up seeing as an extension of “seeking”/“desire”, although I clearly see that it’s a big part of what keeps humanity caught in the squirrel cage. Thanks again.
As always I enjoy your posts which are always provocative. The statement that I rely on is simply no belief is true. As J Krishnamurti one said “A belief vis merely an opinion”. Thanks Robert.
I always loved this saying from my Irish side -- "Of course we don't believe in elves, but they are there anyway!"
Nice and clear.
"I take my coffee black, but if sugar and cream make someone happy, fine by me." Whoa! Crystal Clear!
By the way, the image along with this post I find to be just a knock-out. All of the material junk and all the rectilinear lines, squarish patch shapes and hard materials, then offset by the delicate, tiny, and living cat just sets up such a wonderful surprise and contrast. For me it calls into question the relentless materialism of the modern world perhaps overwhelming or just in contrast to the delicate living world. Such a strong image both in design and metaphorically at least to my reading. Memorable!!!
Thank you, Scott. I appreciate your enjoyment of the photograph and of my words. Be well.
This was great. I am also agnostic, but I often entertain what is most likely fantasy and/or magical thinking. I look at life from both sides now; I really don't know clouds at all. I truly appreciate the clarity of your words, Robert. I know I have told you this, but you remind me so much of UG; not personality-wise, but in the bottom line of your wisdom. After he died, UG appeared to me in a lucid dream and, without getting into details, first, I was very happy to see him and I said -- because it seemed obvious -- "So, there is no death." He smiled. Then he went to the window, morphed into a big white bird and flew away. After that dream, all fear of death fell away -- not that I was ever that afraid of dying. In any case, I believe he would agree 100% with what you said, and how you said it. I never cease to enjoy and benefit greatly from your words.
Yes, nothing to fear. :)
I never met UG, but I do think we see (saw) life and the world in much the same way. Yes, different personalities. I am a quiet listener. Judging from the videos I have seen, UG was an interrupter and non-stop talker, but I see his kindness under the somewhat impatient exterior.
Yes, he had lots of sides to him, but his grandmother said he had the heart of a butcher.
L O L
I enjoyed this conversation and thank you both.
I really appreciate and enjoy the clarity of your writing and ideas. Krishnamurti would approve I think(ha ha... not that you need JK's approval). I also enjoy wonder and awe and the sense that there is more here than meets the eye...maybe I'm just a romantic, but I often get the feeling of a benevolent reality that is also here but that's difficult to see... and sometimes I'm pretty sure I am seeing and experiencing that reality. "Heaven is spread upon the Earth but men do not see it" Jesus says in the Gospel of Thomas. Anyway, I could be wrong... we could all be wrong, and probably are to some extent. Obviously there's no way to know for sure and maybe at some point we will learn the true nature of reality and workings of the universe... that would be nice of course, but it looks doubtful that we(as individuals) will ever know. Oh well... I guess that's why staying with this, here, right now is as much as I can "know"... but I'm pretty foolish. It's a funny thing.
Thank you, Zach. Be well.
Yet another post where, for me, you nail it bro...
An agnostic stance on such matters is, for me currently, the only one that ticks all of the boxes - and I also understand why others have a different view.
I wish you well.
RS - why do Claim to be Awake? Is it the same Awake that others claim like Rupert Spira, Tony Parsons, Eckhart Tolle. They also claim further that Nothing Exists & Nothing Happens. Parsons even says there is No purpose or Meaning in life.
With your philosophical outlook your Awakeness, compared to other “Awakers” doesn’t seem to fit. I would put you more in the Sam Harris agnostic camp.
I am not "claiming" to be awake. The condition I describe in my writing and speaking is a report, not a claim. I have defined what I mean by awake here and elsewhere, so when I say that I am awake, that is what I mean.
As for the three people you mentioned:
I consider that Spira is lost in a delusional, self-hypnotic trance, and I have said why.
As for Tolle, you can read about him in Depending On No-Thing, Chapter 69. I don't consider him to be awake in the way I use that word.
I don't know much about Parsons, but if he says there is no fixed meaning or purpose in life, he and I agree on that. If you find something meaningful, you do, but what is meaningful to you might be meaningless to the next person. As for purpose, what would you say it is?